Get Off Your Stinkin’ Butt! We’ve Got Work To Do.
I was a brief part of a conversation with several pastors this weekend. One of them happened to mention that it seems as though less and less people are coming to church sponsored events, and he wondered whether this was just his church, or if it was a universal thing. One of the other pastors agreed that they were having the same problem. It got me wondering…
I read a blog post that asked why Christians are ashamed of what they believe…this made me wonder some more.
I had a meeting last night and the discussion moved into the “evangelism” arena…the wondering nearly killed me!
So, what was I wondering about?
Why is it that we are focused on doing things that attract people (so called “attractional ministry”)? Didn’t Jesus take twelve men and travel with them? Didn’t He commission them to go into the world and make disciples? Didn’t He send them out into the world in pairs? As a matter of fact, how many times do we even hear about Jesus being in a church (or temple, or synagogue, or other place of worship)? How many times do we hear about Him not being in a church? It seems like He did most of His work outside the church. Is that the model we are following when we setup these “attractional” programs?
How did we end up with this mindset of attracting people? Our job is not attraction… Our job is to get off our butt and GO!
March 7th, 2007 |
Okay, attractional is about welcoming people into your church for them to learn what is determened by the one giving it. Missional is of going out to people and teach them which is determened by what they need to find God. That’s what I got out of your examplese. If I’m right, step on accomplished. As I read on what everyone is saying, no wonder some or getting confused, I don’t think I understand what I’m getting into. LOL I was never raised in a church so I don’t know what’s in the best intrest of a church. I only know from what the churches did that I have gone to in my life, which is only three. One wasn’t a missionary church like the other two. I think they focused more on attraction if I understand it correctly,in a way it led to them thinking they have grown as are as they think they can grow when you never stop growing spiritualy, there’s no end however old you get there’s still something to learn. How else do the elderly get wiser as they grow older, they’re learning something, same way in following God. Missional in a way helps us see what people are facing, thus we learn to help them if we are willing to love them and forgive them when their sins show themselves. If you let their sins get in the way of you learning to help them you’re not getting anywhere and you’re not paying any attention to the Holy Spirit within them at work to make it easier for you, thus you can’t learn from the Holy Spirit. I know I’m getting off subject, but it helps me see the boundries of this to understand how it effects the church and ect. The more you put into missions the more you learn to help people thus it’ll improve you attraction. But, and I do mean “BUT” if you put too much into missions there will be no one at the church to take donations or even do attraction in your church thus you’ll only run the church down and destroy its only way of holding itself up. I don’t know the inner workings of the church or any church at all, so I don’t know all the areas of the church you’ll have to fund just through donations. I really see no true line you must walk to be balance on. I only reasontly gone into missions and haven’t fully grasped how much the church funds help it. So I guess I come to a dead end, but I’ll give you what I understand and oppinion. Missions can help the attraction if you use the information you learn from missions, but missions depends on attraction to keep it going. So I say the only way to stay what would be considered “balance” is to fund missions anytime you have a chance, but don’t be too reclise for you may drive the church too hard and cause it to fall in on itself. I guess I’m sorry, that’s the best I can do to say the best for of action to stay at balance. Maybe it’ll help in some way.
March 7th, 2007 |
So here is what I was thinking after reading all of this (and admittedly quite confused). People come to Jesus outside in the world. People come to Jesus inside the walls of a church too. Spiritual gifts were given so that all bases were covered. Some people are good at evangelizing and bringing someone to Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Some people can do that if they have to but are really good at mentoring and discipling a new believer into spiritual maturity. Both are needed. So here is where it seems to have gotten complicated. Which is the better church-the one that tells its people to “GO” and focuses on training each believer to be a missionary in their own sphere of influence; or the one that tries to attract the non-believers into the church building and get them that way? Well, arguments of methodology would go right out the proverbial window if the “Church” (I’m talking the worldwide Body now) somehow knew Jesus was coming back next week. Hopefully we could come together enough to know that it doesn’t matter how-it just needs to be done. Maybe we need a little more passion for the lost and a little less intellectualization. Maybe our problem isn’t how/where the people get saved, it’s what we do with them after they are. The Bible is so clear about every believer having a local body, we gave a great responsibility to provide a quality place for people to go! I’m more concerned that while we are deciding amongst ourselves how to get Jesus out there, the broken hearted die without Him, and the newborns in Christ never grow up because their spiritual parents weren’t there (see Pastor Chet’s blog, maybe Joe can provide a link) when they went inside those church walls. I read about the growth of Christianity in places like China, North Korea, Vietnam, where the Christians are meeting in underground churches under fear of death, without Bibles, concordances, or access to everything I take for granted–Christian radio that lifts me up, Godly movies at the theater, huge bookstores full of resources for every problem imaginable. Their testimonies reveal that they are growing in the faith stronger then us, where there’s a church every few miles. And what do they have? The Holy Spirit and each other, and maybe a page from a Bible in their language or a tract if they are really lucky. What am I saying? We have it easy. Jesus asks us for simple things; here’s just a few: obedience, that we be salt and light in our world (Matt. 5:13-16) and that we come together regularly to worship God, to encourage each other, to become mature disciples, to serve Him with the gifts we are given. Jesus had different methods, and so did the disciples. I’m guessing He’s OK with that. I’d guess if God’s disappointed it isn’t attractional vs. missional theology, it’s the fact that He doesn’t want anyone to perish and He’s given the job to us and we’re not all taking it seriously. (2 Peter 3). I’m preaching to myself here, I feel the Holy Spirit chastising me for every opportunity I let pass by. I thank Joe for the opportunity to help pull this discussion to the proper place. Be light in your world, don’t forsake the assembly of believers, and don’t assume we have all the time in the world to do our job. Maybe we don’t.
March 6th, 2007 |
@arzell: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! This is exactly what I was trying to say, in my convoluted, round-about way. And, yes, the ship thing was a bad analogy, but the principle of counter-steering is what I was really after. I finally have a good analogy, but you’ll have to read another post to see it
;)
Anyway, Logan, hopefully this can help answer your question about what “attractional” and “missional” mean. Let me quote a fellow blogger:
March 6th, 2007 |
I have never had the impression that we should attempt to attract people. I should clarify. If our focus is attraction, pride can cloud our once good intentions and the gathered crowd would be unstable and weak. But if we focus on sharing Christ’s love, telling people what God did for us, and praying for the Holy Spirit to move on their hearts, we/Jesus will become attractive.
I think the attraction is secondary and involuntary. I know it would be cool, but “missional” will never be a natural development of “attraction”.
This argument appears to be over semantics. Each of the parties seem to have their own definitions because I find it hard to believe the contrast of opinion.
Oh, yeah, when turning a ship, oversteering simply happens due to the inertia that massive boats have. The point is for the captain/pilot to preempt this by counter-steering. this seems to suggest that, though Jeremiah’s analogy was off, his principle was right.
March 2nd, 2007 |
I’m with Nathan.
March 2nd, 2007 |
I don’t think it turns like a car or anything, but turns like what it would turn as it being itself. The thing is I don’t know what you completely mean by attraction and missional. So what do you mean by these two things, I have ideas, but how I’m getting it doesn’t fit too well with what you two are saying so, give me an explanion on what both are and I’ll give what I see it’ll do and maybe come to an agreement. If you don’t end in the same spot where you should start from the beginning in the same spot and start again.
March 2nd, 2007 |
i guess we’re at an impass then.
i believe that the only way of getting balance is to be at balance–and practice balance.
you seem to believe in counter-acting an off-balance by being off-balance.
i guess i believe two wrongs don’t make a right. the only way to be right is to be right.
interesting interpretation you have.
March 2nd, 2007 |
OK, over steer was a bad word to use, but the fact is that when a ship that size needs to make a course correction, and they don’t have lots of time to do it (particularly when they are headed towards an iceberg or when the sea currents and winds do things they don’t plan on and they can’t control), they bring in tug boats and pull it the wrong way, and then let go of it when it’s a few degrees from being on course. A ship of that size cannot make simple course adjustments quickly without some strong influence.
What I am trying to do is not go the wrong way, but simply pull in the opposite direction a little, while others are pulling exactly the other way. Over time, we should both pull each other towards the center. I realize that it’s risky, but I’m tired of sitting around doing nothing, or trying things that simply don’t work or appear to be ineffective. I’m tired of going to church and seeing Christians come from other churches to join the one I attend (I realize that sometimes they need to get out a bad situation they are in, those aren’t the people I’m talking about). I want to see body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, grow, not just my church. Attractional things have a tendency to draw other Christians, because “we are doing something new and different.” These people are being affected by the wind, they need to get planted and stable.
I have seen very few, VERY FEW, attractional programs that have ever worked with any amount of success. Take children’s programs, do non-churched children continue coming to church after they grow up and graduate the program? Or do they follow the path of their parents and leave the church? Attractional systems have a tendency to cater to the crowd, and allows them to stay wishy-washy…let’s get out there and be missional and connect with people, non-christians, in our lives and not make them come to us at the church. The connections we do make are going to be stronger and last longer and be more effective. The people we connect with are going to be more powerfully affected and more likely to make lasting decisions. Our missional mindset will become attractive, but for different, and I believe better, reasons than typical attraction ministry.
March 2nd, 2007 |
ummm…no, large ships do not over steer. if they did, they would constantly be over steering the over steering (a constant zig zag). over steering is always over, meaning, too much, and in a ship, large ship like an oil tanker or aircraft carrier or a cruise ship, they never–never, intentionally over steer. never.
In fact, by over steering, they, by definition of over steering, will need to correct that wrong in the future.
Anyone who has advanced to captain a ship would tell you they NEVER over steer on purpose. They make adjustments to get back to center–NOT to the other side of center.
(granted, they plan on influences, such as wind and sea currents, but they plan on going straight to the target, not off course)
March 1st, 2007 |
I’m not talking about a car…I’m talking about large ships. When a large ship, like and oil tanker, aircraft carrier or a cruise ship, discovers that is is slightly off course they need help to get back on course, or they have to re-plan their route. So, what they do is bring in tug boats to pull the ship in the opposite direction. When the ship is pointed the right way, the tug boats let go and the ship continues on its way. They intentionally over steer to get the ship back on course.
The body of Christ is HUGE…it’s not a car, it’s an oil tanker or a big cruise ship. Correcting the course of one individual is certainly made with small adjustments, but correcting the course of, say a local church body, is going to require a larger adjustment to compensate for the current forward momentum.
Now, consider trying to affect the course of several local bodies…it will take an even larger adjustment. I don’t have my sights set on one or two individuals, I have them set on hundreds of thousands.
I recently saw a quote: “One man with conviction makes a majority.” So true.
March 1st, 2007 |
so you’re saying that since we’re out of balance now, the corrective course is to go out of balance the other way?
when you over steer a car, you end up in the ditch. it is not advisable in a car, and i would suggest over steering to correct a perceived wrong will only take you to the ditch on the other side of the road.
a small adjustment to get you back in the middle will keep you safe.
March 1st, 2007 |
I guess, from my perspective, we have been living an unbalanced attractional life for far too long now. And, the best way to correct the path of the ship is to over steer a little bit to get us back on course.
Considering Jesus, he didn’t attract the disciples. He went to them, and grabbed them. He started with a missional mindset. Then He trained them and sent them out to do what He had done. Admittedly, He attracted crowds, but He never really won the crowds over. The same crowds He attracted and that welcomed Him into Jerusalem with palm branches and celebration demanded that He be crucified. For the most part, those who remained faithful were the people He approached missionally. I would propose that He started missionally and let the attraction happen.
We do need both, and it does need to be a biblical balance, but I really think that trying to do something attractional without something missional already established is putting the cart before the horse.
March 1st, 2007 |
Jeremiah,
i think there can be a better balance than ‘first one, then the other.’
As a whole, Jesus did both, not one and then the other. (i guess, technically, he attracted and then sent those he attracted)
a church should be involved in both, not thinking the other will eventually come.
March 1st, 2007 |
@nathan: Yes, Mark Driscoll hits on this issue in his book, but I don’t know that I agree with him completely. I don’t have the book in front of me, so I can’t double check his stance. But, here’s where I am:
For the most part, every church I have ever been a part of has been attractionally focused, and have treated evangelism like a job only a few people are qualified to do. The fact is that every Christian is an evangelist…there is no way around it! Some people are admittedly better at it than others, but EVERYONE (Christians, that is) is to go and make disciples.
I think we need to put the focus on missional living. As we become more missional, the attractional stuff will start to take care of itself. Missional is taking what I have out into the world and attracting people where they are. Attractional is trying to get people to come to me so I can show them my faith. That’s backwards, and I have a problem with it.
I’m actually headed somewhere with this concept. In my mind, the first step for people is to become missional. Once they are living this life, then we can start worrying about attractional. But, we must worry about missional first. We must stop being afraid to live our faith outside the walls of the church! Then, and only then, can we be truly attractional.
So, I guess what I’m saying here is: GO, we’ll worry about the attractional later, and we will get there, but until we get there, GO!
March 1st, 2007 |
Jeremiah,
I just started reading the book you gave me, Confessions of a Reformission Rev., and although i’m not very far into it, Driscoll hits on this issue, and i don’t think he agrees with you. He stated, attractional churches and missional churches ‘each [need] to learn from the other; each has a vital piece of the truth gleaned from the life of Jesus.’
I think perhaps you’re stating a one-sided view (missional) while omitted the benefits of the attractional ministry of Jesus.
there is a balance in there. one-sided views have a tendency to make people run the other way (or fight). Sure, you have a point, but when your point goes so far as to knock the biblical principle of attraction, i do suggest you’re walking a thin line there.
i suggest the key is to find the balance between the attraction and the mission. it’s not one or the other–it should be both in a Godly balance.
February 27th, 2007 |
Thanks Logan!
Like I said, I’m not perfect (and I’m really not good at communicating my thoughts very clearly!)…none of us are. It’s my job to watch myself and take care of myself, but sometimes it’s nice to have someone offer a helping hand (or a correction), and I hope to be able to offer a helping hand (and sometimes a correction) to others. It takes all of us working together!
(Oh, and I HATE those bumper sticker cliches…I mean, I CAN’T STAND THEM! So, if you ever hear me hand one out, let me have it!)
February 27th, 2007 |
Yes! That’s more like it! I trip up a lot of times and it makes me mad at times when no one is willing to say your in the wrong or help me see clear when Satan pepper sprace me in the face and causes me not to see clear. But they are willing to make me feel in doubt of what I do know is right. I may know my foot is in a snare and I will call out to anyone to help me step by step ways to get out of it, but they say nothing, just watch me waiting for me to fall even further, when one does try to help, what they say is like something you would put on a bumper sticker, which isn’t helping me. You’re mysticisom was one thing that helped me understand something I was facing no one could help me with. We all make mistakes and if you can’t confess you are in the wrong you will only fall even farther. Well at least I know you’re not a wolf. (Smile)
February 27th, 2007 |
@Logan: You’re right, we don’t know each other very well, but don’t worry, I don’t take offense at what you said. You have really made me sit back and think about what I believe. You have challenged me, and I appreciate that. You keep me humble!
I don’t expect everyone to see the world the same way I do. I realize that I am unbalanced in some areas, and my brothers and sisters in Christ may very well be balanced in those areas…so I need to let them (you) pull me back into balance. At the same time, I am balanced in some areas where others aren’t, and they need to let me pull them into balance. All of us working together for the glory of God, from our unique and different perspectives, is an absolutely amazing thing. So, please, don’t just agree with me. Feel free to disagree, maybe I need correction!
I think I need to clarify…When I say shake the dust off of my feet, I don’t mean give up on them, I mean I shouldn’t let myself be hurt by their rejection, I must keep trying to reach them. That’s not to say that I haven’t failed and given up on people in the past, and that I won’t fail and give up on people in the future, but giving up on people is not my goal! Ever!
I am actually heading somewhere with this post…so I’ll give you a sneak peak at upcoming stuff: I’m sick and tired of going to church and feeling good about myself and trying to attract people to church. I want to go out into the world and find people who need loved, and let God use me to love them, even if they reject me or try to hurt me. They still need God’s love. I’m going to fail at it, but the possibility of failure is not going to stop me from trying my hardest to do it!
I hope that helps clarify what I’m saying here.
February 27th, 2007 |
… I know you don’t know me and I don’t know you very well, but we are both Christians, brothers so don’t take this too personal. I realize more and more we see the world different ways as I keep reading what you write and as I comment on stuff, but I still see have the strength like Jesus saw in “all” his disciples. Yes, the gate is narrow into Heaven and you are feeling how tight it is as you face this situation, and there “will” be more. Yes Jesus was crucified by the people he was sent to save and his disciples tortured. Do you think Jesus didn’t know it was coming? He did and he continued doing what he was sent to do. You can’t ask if Jesus knew what would happen would he do things different because he new and he did it anyway for it was right and good. People will reject you, Jesus says so, but are you going to say, “Oh, I’m going to be called names if I do that, so I shouldn’t do it then.” No! If the wolves bite you then you have the marks to show God that you weren’t willing to back off in the name Of Jesus Christ and Jesus will die for your sins for your faith and love. But shaking off the dust from your feet, I know the Bible says that, but do you even know when the time comes when to shake the dust off or to continue without giving up. Jesus was on a tight scedual so he can’t go to every one’s house and stay with them till they are ready to go to Heaven. People told Jesus to stay in their town longer, but Jesus had to refuse. If he stayed and when to every town and stayed till they where saved he would have missed the dead line for his crucification. Maybe less and less people are coming because you where too buisy shaking the dust from your feet. 19 years of my life was without Jesus because of people like you giving up before you take one true step forward! 19 Years of “MY” life! So God had to come down and do it himself with one other person to turn me around. What about those you shook your feet at, will they be lucky to have less then 19 years before a true Christian steps forward. I’m 20 years old, most of my life without Jesus and right NOW I wish someone just one…one person didn’t shake there feet at me…just one person. What kind of Christian are you if you are too buissy shaking your feet of dust that’s NOT EVEN THERE! Yes it’ll be a hasle to not give up, but like you said the gate to heaven is narrow. Are you going to step through them or are you just going to shake the dust off your feet and go back from where you traveled from. The world is full of wolves and they will have deadly bites that will not just hurt you inside what can break your flesh and cause your blood to flow. Jesus’ disciples knew how deadly the bite of the wolves pretending and not pretending to be sheep in God’s flock and they did not shake there feet at them as but pushed forward and did not pull there arms away from the fangs or cover there throat to protect there own lives. They died for what you would shake their feet at. Because of people like you they die for the people you give up on, and in part you make their death’s more bloody. What’s the limit for a person till you begin shaking your foot at them? when they turn their back on God once…twice? Peter turned from Jesus three times before the rooster crowed, but Peter wasn’t given up on and Peter make mistakes later on in his life that the Bible points out. God says to forgive your brother seventy-something times or something, but it isn’t so you can count them out one by one till you get to the number and then deside to not forgive him anymore and start shaking your feet at him. I’m sorry if this hits your hard, but would Jesus let one of his sheep continue to head the wrong way or will he try and shepherd the sheep in the right way? … I’m sorry.
February 27th, 2007 |
Well, I want to agree with you Michael. What you say sounds so good and is so appealing and nice.
But the fact is that Jesus said, “the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Matthew 7:14, ESV)
Jesus was persecuted and crucified for what He did. That doesn’t sound like a grateful group of people. Many of Jesus’ followers were killed or tortured or ridiculed in ways we can’t begin to imagine for their beliefs.
I can’t market Jesus. I must be Jesus to the world, but the fact is that most people are going to reject me…so, I need to shake the dust off of my feet as I leave them. (Matthew 10:14) I do need to try to find ways to contextualize and reach out, but I need to be more focused on Jesus than on contextualizing.
Remember, the same crowd Jesus attracted that welcomed Him into Jerusalem with palm branches and cheering, is the same crowd that wanted Him crucified several days later. He was not trying to attract them. He loved them, and wanted to reach them, but He wasn’t about to cater to them, or meet their “felt needs.” He came to bring them life (not attract them towards life), and they chose to reject it.
In this post I was actually talking about the church as an organization, i.e. the building and it’s employees, and not the people who make up the Body of Christ. But, somehow we have become reliant on that building to do our job for us…and it’s time to bite the bullet and do our job!
February 27th, 2007 |
Being in marketing, Joe, you should understand that it is important to attract people to THE CHURCH. Being that, Biblically, Christians are THE CHURCH and that the church is not a building with a cross on the door… it’s important to have the proper strategy.
I want to see people come to Christ! The best way to see people come to Him is to show Him to them. The great thing about this method is that, as Christians, we should already be doing this! Christ should be the center of our lives and the action-button for everything we do! Living a life in close relationship with Christ forces us to show Him to others through our lives. It’s quite amazing.
If we are being Christ-like… we will do two things that will attract people: Meet their needs and live to a higher standard. Christ whole ministry was about meeting peoples needs. He healed, cast out demons, ministered to the broken hearted, had fellowship with the lonely, fed the hungry, forgave the wicked, taught the truth, discipled his followers. That’s meeting needs! Now, no one person can do all of this, but that’s why we are called THE BODY OF CHRIST. We all make up the body and can all do different things. Not only did Christ meet needs though, he proved time and again that he lived to a different standard. He lived a life of purity and resistance to sin and temptation for no earthly gain… and to see someone strive (Christ did not only strive, but he overcame!) to what is right for the sole reason of it being right… attracts people. Not doing it gain stature of fame, but simply because your relationship with God affects you to. People want that…
Wow… I’m long winded.