Comments on: Get Off Your Stinkin’ Butt! We’ve Got Work To Do. http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/ My mind doesn't wander, I...Look, a butterfly! Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:34:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Logan http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-313 Logan Thu, 08 Mar 2007 01:53:20 +0000 http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-313 Okay, attractional is about welcoming people into your church for them to learn what is determened by the one giving it. Missional is of going out to people and teach them which is determened by what they need to find God. That's what I got out of your examplese. If I'm right, step on accomplished. As I read on what everyone is saying, no wonder some or getting confused, I don't think I understand what I'm getting into. LOL I was never raised in a church so I don't know what's in the best intrest of a church. I only know from what the churches did that I have gone to in my life, which is only three. One wasn't a missionary church like the other two. I think they focused more on attraction if I understand it correctly,in a way it led to them thinking they have grown as are as they think they can grow when you never stop growing spiritualy, there's no end however old you get there's still something to learn. How else do the elderly get wiser as they grow older, they're learning something, same way in following God. Missional in a way helps us see what people are facing, thus we learn to help them if we are willing to love them and forgive them when their sins show themselves. If you let their sins get in the way of you learning to help them you're not getting anywhere and you're not paying any attention to the Holy Spirit within them at work to make it easier for you, thus you can't learn from the Holy Spirit. I know I'm getting off subject, but it helps me see the boundries of this to understand how it effects the church and ect. The more you put into missions the more you learn to help people thus it'll improve you attraction. But, and I do mean "BUT" if you put too much into missions there will be no one at the church to take donations or even do attraction in your church thus you'll only run the church down and destroy its only way of holding itself up. I don't know the inner workings of the church or any church at all, so I don't know all the areas of the church you'll have to fund just through donations. I really see no true line you must walk to be balance on. I only reasontly gone into missions and haven't fully grasped how much the church funds help it. So I guess I come to a dead end, but I'll give you what I understand and oppinion. Missions can help the attraction if you use the information you learn from missions, but missions depends on attraction to keep it going. So I say the only way to stay what would be considered "balance" is to fund missions anytime you have a chance, but don't be too reclise for you may drive the church too hard and cause it to fall in on itself. I guess I'm sorry, that's the best I can do to say the best for of action to stay at balance. Maybe it'll help in some way. Okay, attractional is about welcoming people into your church for them to learn what is determened by the one giving it. Missional is of going out to people and teach them which is determened by what they need to find God. That’s what I got out of your examplese. If I’m right, step on accomplished. As I read on what everyone is saying, no wonder some or getting confused, I don’t think I understand what I’m getting into. LOL I was never raised in a church so I don’t know what’s in the best intrest of a church. I only know from what the churches did that I have gone to in my life, which is only three. One wasn’t a missionary church like the other two. I think they focused more on attraction if I understand it correctly,in a way it led to them thinking they have grown as are as they think they can grow when you never stop growing spiritualy, there’s no end however old you get there’s still something to learn. How else do the elderly get wiser as they grow older, they’re learning something, same way in following God. Missional in a way helps us see what people are facing, thus we learn to help them if we are willing to love them and forgive them when their sins show themselves. If you let their sins get in the way of you learning to help them you’re not getting anywhere and you’re not paying any attention to the Holy Spirit within them at work to make it easier for you, thus you can’t learn from the Holy Spirit. I know I’m getting off subject, but it helps me see the boundries of this to understand how it effects the church and ect. The more you put into missions the more you learn to help people thus it’ll improve you attraction. But, and I do mean “BUT” if you put too much into missions there will be no one at the church to take donations or even do attraction in your church thus you’ll only run the church down and destroy its only way of holding itself up. I don’t know the inner workings of the church or any church at all, so I don’t know all the areas of the church you’ll have to fund just through donations. I really see no true line you must walk to be balance on. I only reasontly gone into missions and haven’t fully grasped how much the church funds help it. So I guess I come to a dead end, but I’ll give you what I understand and oppinion. Missions can help the attraction if you use the information you learn from missions, but missions depends on attraction to keep it going. So I say the only way to stay what would be considered “balance” is to fund missions anytime you have a chance, but don’t be too reclise for you may drive the church too hard and cause it to fall in on itself. I guess I’m sorry, that’s the best I can do to say the best for of action to stay at balance. Maybe it’ll help in some way.

]]> By: Tara Lilly http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-305 Tara Lilly Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:48:32 +0000 http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-305 So here is what I was thinking after reading all of this (and admittedly quite confused). People come to Jesus outside in the world. People come to Jesus inside the walls of a church too. Spiritual gifts were given so that all bases were covered. Some people are good at evangelizing and bringing someone to Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Some people can do that if they have to but are really good at mentoring and discipling a new believer into spiritual maturity. Both are needed. So here is where it seems to have gotten complicated. Which is the better church-the one that tells its people to "GO" and focuses on training each believer to be a missionary in their own sphere of influence; or the one that tries to attract the non-believers into the church building and get them that way? Well, arguments of methodology would go right out the proverbial window if the "Church" (I'm talking the worldwide Body now) somehow knew Jesus was coming back next week. Hopefully we could come together enough to know that it doesn't matter how-it just needs to be done. Maybe we need a little more passion for the lost and a little less intellectualization. Maybe our problem isn't how/where the people get saved, it's what we do with them after they are. The Bible is so clear about every believer having a local body, we gave a great responsibility to provide a quality place for people to go! I'm more concerned that while we are deciding amongst ourselves how to get Jesus out there, the broken hearted die without Him, and the newborns in Christ never grow up because their spiritual parents weren't there (see Pastor Chet's blog, maybe Joe can provide a link) when they went inside those church walls. I read about the growth of Christianity in places like China, North Korea, Vietnam, where the Christians are meeting in underground churches under fear of death, without Bibles, concordances, or access to everything I take for granted--Christian radio that lifts me up, Godly movies at the theater, huge bookstores full of resources for every problem imaginable. Their testimonies reveal that they are growing in the faith stronger then us, where there's a church every few miles. And what do they have? The Holy Spirit and each other, and maybe a page from a Bible in their language or a tract if they are really lucky. What am I saying? We have it easy. Jesus asks us for simple things; here's just a few: obedience, that we be salt and light in our world (Matt. 5:13-16) and that we come together regularly to worship God, to encourage each other, to become mature disciples, to serve Him with the gifts we are given. Jesus had different methods, and so did the disciples. I'm guessing He's OK with that. I'd guess if God's disappointed it isn't attractional vs. missional theology, it's the fact that He doesn't want anyone to perish and He's given the job to us and we're not all taking it seriously. (2 Peter 3). I'm preaching to myself here, I feel the Holy Spirit chastising me for every opportunity I let pass by. I thank Joe for the opportunity to help pull this discussion to the proper place. Be light in your world, don't forsake the assembly of believers, and don't assume we have all the time in the world to do our job. Maybe we don't. So here is what I was thinking after reading all of this (and admittedly quite confused). People come to Jesus outside in the world. People come to Jesus inside the walls of a church too. Spiritual gifts were given so that all bases were covered. Some people are good at evangelizing and bringing someone to Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit. Some people can do that if they have to but are really good at mentoring and discipling a new believer into spiritual maturity. Both are needed. So here is where it seems to have gotten complicated. Which is the better church-the one that tells its people to “GO” and focuses on training each believer to be a missionary in their own sphere of influence; or the one that tries to attract the non-believers into the church building and get them that way? Well, arguments of methodology would go right out the proverbial window if the “Church” (I’m talking the worldwide Body now) somehow knew Jesus was coming back next week. Hopefully we could come together enough to know that it doesn’t matter how-it just needs to be done. Maybe we need a little more passion for the lost and a little less intellectualization. Maybe our problem isn’t how/where the people get saved, it’s what we do with them after they are. The Bible is so clear about every believer having a local body, we gave a great responsibility to provide a quality place for people to go! I’m more concerned that while we are deciding amongst ourselves how to get Jesus out there, the broken hearted die without Him, and the newborns in Christ never grow up because their spiritual parents weren’t there (see Pastor Chet’s blog, maybe Joe can provide a link) when they went inside those church walls. I read about the growth of Christianity in places like China, North Korea, Vietnam, where the Christians are meeting in underground churches under fear of death, without Bibles, concordances, or access to everything I take for granted–Christian radio that lifts me up, Godly movies at the theater, huge bookstores full of resources for every problem imaginable. Their testimonies reveal that they are growing in the faith stronger then us, where there’s a church every few miles. And what do they have? The Holy Spirit and each other, and maybe a page from a Bible in their language or a tract if they are really lucky. What am I saying? We have it easy. Jesus asks us for simple things; here’s just a few: obedience, that we be salt and light in our world (Matt. 5:13-16) and that we come together regularly to worship God, to encourage each other, to become mature disciples, to serve Him with the gifts we are given. Jesus had different methods, and so did the disciples. I’m guessing He’s OK with that. I’d guess if God’s disappointed it isn’t attractional vs. missional theology, it’s the fact that He doesn’t want anyone to perish and He’s given the job to us and we’re not all taking it seriously. (2 Peter 3). I’m preaching to myself here, I feel the Holy Spirit chastising me for every opportunity I let pass by. I thank Joe for the opportunity to help pull this discussion to the proper place. Be light in your world, don’t forsake the assembly of believers, and don’t assume we have all the time in the world to do our job. Maybe we don’t.

]]> By: joe http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-303 joe Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:06:57 +0000 http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-303 @arzell: I think you've hit the nail on the head! This is exactly what I was trying to say, in my convoluted, round-about way. And, yes, the ship thing was a bad analogy, but the principle of counter-steering is what I was really after. I finally have a good analogy, but you'll have to read <a href="http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/balance/" rel="nofollow">another post</a> to see it ;) ;) Anyway, Logan, hopefully this can help answer your question about what "attractional" and "missional" mean. Let me quote a fellow blogger: <blockquote><strong>Attractional Church:</strong> Mindset: We own the turf, we would love to have you on our terms. Come on is and check it out, we have great programs for you. We are a welcoming church concerned about the needs of every person who walks in that door. We have to present a good image before others so that His light will be made known. We are a city on a hill. <strong>Missional Church:</strong> Mindset: We are the aliens in our land, and we will come to them on thier terms so long as we can honor God in it. Go out into the world and be involved in the community in real and natural ways. You and your faithfulness to God is the program, and we will do all we can to help you in your growth. We are concerned with every one that will one day walk through God's kingdom doors. Our image will be of normal people in the normal process of God's sanctification. We are but lights in a city. -<a rel="nofollow" href="http://dumbjock.blogspot.com/2007/02/missional-vs-attractional.html" rel="nofollow">David Rudd, WatersEdge</a></blockquote> @arzell: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head! This is exactly what I was trying to say, in my convoluted, round-about way. And, yes, the ship thing was a bad analogy, but the principle of counter-steering is what I was really after. I finally have a good analogy, but you’ll have to read another post to see it ;) ;)

Anyway, Logan, hopefully this can help answer your question about what “attractional” and “missional” mean. Let me quote a fellow blogger:

Attractional Church:

Mindset: We own the turf, we would love to have you on our terms. Come on is and check it out, we have great programs for you. We are a welcoming church concerned about the needs of every person who walks in that door. We have to present a good image before others so that His light will be made known. We are a city on a hill.

Missional Church:

Mindset: We are the aliens in our land, and we will come to them on thier terms so long as we can honor God in it. Go out into the world and be involved in the community in real and natural ways. You and your faithfulness to God is the program, and we will do all we can to help you in your growth. We are concerned with every one that will one day walk through God’s kingdom doors. Our image will be of normal people in the normal process of God’s sanctification. We are but lights in a city.

-David Rudd, WatersEdge

]]> By: arzell http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-302 arzell Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:44:52 +0000 http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-302 I have never had the impression that we should attempt to attract people. I should clarify. If our focus is attraction, pride can cloud our once good intentions and the gathered crowd would be unstable and weak. But if we focus on sharing Christ's love, telling people what God did for us, and praying for the Holy Spirit to move on their hearts, we/Jesus will become attractive. I think the attraction is secondary and involuntary. I know it would be cool, but "missional" will never be a natural development of "attraction". This argument appears to be over semantics. Each of the parties seem to have their own definitions because I find it hard to believe the contrast of opinion. Oh, yeah, when turning a ship, oversteering simply happens due to the inertia that massive boats have. The point is for the captain/pilot to preempt this by counter-steering. this seems to suggest that, though Jeremiah's analogy was off, his principle was right. I have never had the impression that we should attempt to attract people. I should clarify. If our focus is attraction, pride can cloud our once good intentions and the gathered crowd would be unstable and weak. But if we focus on sharing Christ’s love, telling people what God did for us, and praying for the Holy Spirit to move on their hearts, we/Jesus will become attractive.
I think the attraction is secondary and involuntary. I know it would be cool, but “missional” will never be a natural development of “attraction”.

This argument appears to be over semantics. Each of the parties seem to have their own definitions because I find it hard to believe the contrast of opinion.

Oh, yeah, when turning a ship, oversteering simply happens due to the inertia that massive boats have. The point is for the captain/pilot to preempt this by counter-steering. this seems to suggest that, though Jeremiah’s analogy was off, his principle was right.

]]> By: Abby http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-297 Abby Sat, 03 Mar 2007 00:58:17 +0000 http://www.jeremiahotis.com/quiet-thoughts/get-off-your-stinkin-butt-weve-got-work-to-do/#comment-297 I'm with Nathan. I’m with Nathan.

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